Ep 88 Creativity: Trust is the key to everything.

In this essential episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates explores why trust is the cornerstone of creativity, teamwork, and effective leadership—and why it’s often misunderstood or overlooked in most organizations. Stephen breaks down the various types of trust, explains where trust matters most, and shares practical ways to assess and strengthen it within your team. Tune in to discover powerful strategies for building a human-centered culture of trust that fuels collaboration, innovation, and growth.

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Transcript

Stephen Gates : 0:00

What's going on everybody, and welcome into the eighth episode of the crazy one podcast. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about how to help you be more creative, become a better leader, create more innovative work, grow stronger career and a whole lot more. As always, you can listen to all the shows, get the show notes, get my essential creative tools, and even some crazy one propaganda, you can get it all over at the crazy one calm, that's the crazy and the number one calm. And remember, whenever on your favorite podcast platform, hit the subscribe button. So you get the latest shows whenever those come out and take just a couple seconds and leave a review of the show. So everybody knows how much you love it. And as always, if you have any questions, you want to just keep up with my adventures get more content like this or anything else. Feel free to follow me on Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn. So for today's show, I think over the past what's been a year and a half, I've been able to work with so many different teams, so many different creative leaders all over the world. And I mean these are teams In people that sort of span all levels of design, maturity, they span all cultures, they span, you know, different languages, all sorts of things. And I think like one of the best parts, one of the most interesting things that's come out of that has really been a really broad perspective about what works and what doesn't, whenever it comes to creativity, and I think, you know, I've talked about this on a few of the shows in the past, you start to see some patterns that start to come out, you start to see some things that really start to shine through. And I think, you know, one of the most fascinating things is I've been working with all these different companies, has been where you can start to see where they'll start to struggle in the same places. And that sort of become a really interesting focus for me is starting to look at, you know, there are things and that's why I've done shows on things like cognitive bias or these other sort of like, foundational problems, but I think it all comes down to something simpler, but probably bigger and a hell of a lot more complicated than I think is the real root of the problem, it's the real heart of what's really going on. And where are we struggling? And that's trust. Because I think whenever you look at it whenever you look at, like, what makes one team really great, and another one where they could just honestly not fall off a boat and hit water, like trust is what defines great teams that defines great leaders that defines great companies in so many different ways. But I think, you know, as I've sort of been doing this expedition, you see that trust is something that is in painfully painfully short supply. And the thing is, like, trust is not it's not a matter of technique, right? Like you it does, it's not about how slick your presentation is. It's not about if you say the right words, it's a matter of character, right? Like people are trusted because of the way they are right? Like not because of how polished the exterior is, how expertly crafted a communicator they are, or, you know, and and i think that that's, that's where we start to wrong because trust is often built out of things that most companies don't value, right? Because companies will value the slick exterior that the presentation they value. You know how how well can you you know, kiss ass from your level and above, right? Because there are people who can have very very fruitful, productive, even profitable careers at too many companies whose seemingly only real sole skills are hitting deadlines and kissing ass right? And you all probably just thought of somebody, somebody who's in your team, somebody who's in your org that fits into that. And those people you, you know, you don't trust them. Because that's the thing is, is you build and maintain trusting relationships, and a culture of trust in your workplace one step at a time, right? Because it's just again, it's one of these things where you can't really fake the funk on it. You build it through every action you take through every interaction you have, and I think, you know, trust can also be one of those things that may be misunder stood, it may be hard to define. And I think that it's one of those things that you know, at times it can become fragile, it can even become broken. And it is one of those things, though that can be rebuilt that can be done better. And so this is a very interesting episode for me. I think hopefully this is going to be an extremely important episode for a lot of people to hopefully be able to pull the curtain back on what is going on in your team in your company, maybe even with yourself. So in this episode, what I want to do is I want to take a look at the fact that there are actually two different types of trust. And I think a lot of people in a lot of companies don't understand the delineation this which is why we have problems. I think we want to understand like where is trust important. Look at how do we actually assess those different parts of trust. And that how all of this leads to what I think is is actually the most actionable and the best way of approaching any sort of change, which is human centered transformation. And that is simply People matter that if you want to do something different, if you want to build something that's better, people are going to be the way to be able to do it, especially especially for some anything that is creative. And we're also going to look at what are some of the best ways and some of the things that you should think about and do every single day to build trust. Now, as usual, with a lot of these shows, the thing that I like to do is to start with the basics, because I think if you don't understand the fundamentals, if you don't understand like the more nuanced parts of what goes on, you're not going to be effective at being able to create any sort of change. And so in many cases, as with this, things are never as simple as they appear. Because I think people just think is trust is this sort of like one dimensional thing? Like do you trust someone yes or no. But as you start to study this, and as you start to look into this, the thing that you're going to find is that there are two different types of trust. There is practical trust and there is emotional trust. And let's let's start there, right like let's start about what is that The difference. Now practical trust is something that is earned by just sort of being a great worker, right? Like you do the basics. Like you meet your commitments you show up on time, you do what you'll say, right? Like this, the simple Craftsman practical approach to your job. And you build trust, because people rely on your competence, you're seen as dependable, right? Like they're basically practical trust is that you are seen as someone who will get the job done. And the thing is that even if you don't like someone, you need to be able to have practical trust in them to be productive and to be successful. And that's why this type of trust and practical trust is foundational because if you don't have it, you and your team is going to have not surprisingly, a lot of really big problems. And it's not a mystery, that most struggles come out of the fact that companies seem to struggle to get different teams to even get to a place where there's practical respect for each other. Other that, again, they're in the most broken relationships that I see on teams is that as I look at product or engineering or design or marketing or executives, there is the lack of even practical trust between them that you aren't even sure that you really think that somebody else is going to do the job. Well. And I think that that is a huge, huge problem. Because I think like the real problem here is that practical trust is I think, at most companies, that is all that they think that trust is that all that's all that they want, right? Like that's all that they asked for is just that you get the job done. And I think that the reason why they do that one is just because emotional intelligence is not prioritized as a skill that they think is important. And this is why creativity struggles. But the other part of it is that they do it because practical trust is just a lot more straightforward, and it's easier to understand, right? These are very tangible, measurable things because for most of us at the end of the day at the end of the day, end of the week, end of the month, end of the year, our goals are set against practical measurements, right? So that in one way or another, this is why practical trust is what is measured in what is valued, because it's just Hey, can you get the job done. But that's why I said is, I think, is a foundational element. This has to be there. But if this is the only thing that is prioritized and focused on, right, because I think practical trust alone is never going to create great work. Because just simply saying that I'm looking around and I feel like I will only trust everyone enough to get the job done is a very rudimentary, very entry level way of thinking about trust. But like I said, this is the way that most teams Think about it. Now the separation here is that on top of that then gets layered in emotional trust. Emotional trust is the next level of practical trust because this is when the practical and the foundational becomes transformational. A lot of words that rhyme. But it really underlines why this is so important because this is the type of trust when people trust that you are on their side that you are thinking about more than just yourself that it is more than just simply the functional execution of doing what you say. They know that you're going to treat them with two of the most important things that are central to emotional trust. And that is honesty and respect. You won't judge them for your setbacks, right? Like they're going to be comfortable telling us and other people, their honest thoughts, their feelings, their ideas. This is emotional trust is the way that I would genuinely define trust. Right? Because this is the type of trust obviously, that is then far more complicated, because it goes beyond the hard work and respecting other people's time. It requires a level of emotional intelligence. It requires that you think about more than just yourself. It requires that you actually invest in other people. I think the thing here is that the lack of understanding, valuing and respecting emotional trust is the root of almost every team that I work with who is struggling? Because they do not. They think that just that sort of practical trust is enough, or that they sort of mistake the two, that oh, well, no, no, I, you know, I do what I say. So you should trust me. Okay. Like I said, that's an executional view of it. It isn't where I'm actually going to risk anything. It's not where I'm going to do anything different. It's not where I feel like if I take that risk, other people are going to support me. But here's that first moment where I want you to just take a moment, right, like, take some time and think about when you think about the main people that you work with, do you have practical or emotional trust with them? The chances are that if that list has more practical than emotional, then your team is struggling. If all they're all relying on each other to do is to do their job to go back to their job description to meet whatever the KPI is, and they do not feel like there is anything where people are on their side. Where they have that sort of honesty and respect for what they do. And I think especially you see this when people have to reach across the aisle right into another group of you to reach over into product into engineering into marketing into, I mean, hell, it could even be between copywriting and a designer, where if you don't have that emotional trust, then that's where you're really going to struggle. But that's what I want you to start to just think about right is to just sort of take an inventory of who you work with. And it could be your team. It could be you know, your collaborator, it could be whatever that is, but just simply think about whenever you think about them, is it just that you will depend on them to do their job? Or will you really think that they're on your side, because I think that sort of list and understanding where the balance is, can be really, really anxiety inducing. It can be really interesting, but I think it also gives you a really good inventory to start to work on to understand what is the state of your team and what is really going on. Now, like look, I think that this the ability to start to build system Start to get emotional trust is critical in three really important areas. Whenever again, we want to start to break this down a little bit more. It's important on an individual level, it's important on a team level. And it's important on a company level. And again, I think that, you know, a lot of the times it is this lack of emotional trust, that drive is so many of the issues. Because on an individual level, trust is really important whenever it comes to just basically your creativity, that to put your best ideas out there. You have to know that you can trust yourself, and that you have to get people around you, you can trust them to be able to have a conversation that if it immediately just goes to you know, how do we judge this idea? How do we tear it down and figure out how it's wrong? That tends to be again more in the practical trust area that it's only an emotional trust that can we brainstorm can reroute Can we see that this other person, there's something that they feel like is there? How do I invest in them? How do I invest in their process? How do I invest in what they're going through? Because I feel like well, if they feel like there is something They're, well, then I do too. And I want to support them. You know, for teams, teams, this becomes so incredibly important. But again, like I never hear anybody talk about or think about, like, whenever you hire somebody, building trust starts from the very beginning. That that is the inception of that, that if you think about it, like I mean, seriously, think about it. Think about the last job you turned down. I'm betting that you did it if you took the time to think about it, because at your core, you didn't trust the company, you didn't trust the leadership. You didn't trust the team. Like there was something where you're just like, you know what, this doesn't feel right. Well, again, I think that the trust is that part of the field. And I think so many companies would hire so much differently would go through an interview process so much differently. If they looked at it through the lens of this is the start of us building trust with somebody and that that is what is going to be important here. That's what's gonna set us up to be and that's what's gonna set us apart to hire better people, is if we're coming at it with that perspective. leadership, right? Like, you know, as a creative, you know, that you've got to take risks. And you've got to trust that your leadership is going to help you work through that our work is so personal and that, like, Look, if we don't trust our leaders, then we get frustrated. And our work, you know, starts to shrink, and we just can't find any way to do anything unique or original. That that's why again, trust is so important in that because the worst leaders are the people you don't trust, the worst leaders are the ones who you know, don't give a shit about you, right? They're the ones that you know, who are just going to hold you to getting your job done. And then at the end of the day, when push comes to shove, they're not going to invest in you, they're not going to look out for you, they're gonna look out for themselves. And that again, even if you don't put it in those words, even if until this moment, you haven't consciously thought about it, you know, and hearing that whenever it's true, and you know who those people are, because ultimately on the team level, trust or the lack thereof, is one of the biggest influencers in how do you actually retain people, right, because emotional trust is critical if you're going to stay on a team for any amount of time, because most of the time whenever people quit, it's Because they no longer have any emotional trust in their team or in their boss, they are not looking out for them, they are not going to grow here, there is not something that is going on, you know. And so again, that sort of the lack of that the breakdown of that tends to be the root at so many of these problems. But then also on the biggest stage on the biggest level on the company level, trust is so important here again, on the leadership side, right, because that erosion of trust in companies is what has led to very, very large trends that are going on right now. like things like the gig economy, the gig economy is that where people no longer really see themselves as long term employees as a company. So what do they do they want to bounce around from place to place, they don't want to get tied down. And that again, a lot of digital technology, a lot of the things like that is allowing this to happen. But that is the fundamental reason why trends like the gig economy are firing up because there is just this collapse in trust. Because people just look at this and go, look, I don't trust that you're going to take care of me. I don't trust that you're going to grow my career. I don't trust that you're actually going to do right by me that at the end of the day. I feel like going thing that is going to be trusted is a company will look out for itself. And that, you know, that sort of fundamental trust, I think runs to the core because as you also just look at it a company level how so many companies work, this simple thing, right? Like we have seen this huge rise in things like agile methodologies and that we want to try to get work done faster, we want to try, you know, re re bringing, I don't know what, like different creative methodologies that we've tried in the past, like design thinking or design sprints, or these sort of things. And for so many people, for so many companies, I watched them start to hesitate to use the words transformation or design thinking or design sprints, because they've started we've been at this long enough now in this generation that we started to see them fail just as quickly as as they started to rise, right? Because the reality is that for any of these sorts of things to really work, it requires that the company executives and the leaders trust the people who are doing the work, right. Because that's the thing is that working this way is is really trusting people you have To do be able to do what it is that they say they can do. And the issue is, is that for so many companies have so much leadership, that seems to be an incredibly foreign concept, that ability of, you know, letting go of I am in charge because I have a title I am in charge, because I tell you what to do. Look, I understand both sides of this equation, I understand that from a leadership side, they cannot they're not going to keep their job if they don't deliver. Right. But at some point, you know, the mark of real leaders the mark of the people who that so many of these companies will point to and say this is who we want to be like, our culture's our leaders, or ways of working that are trust driven because that's the thing is that you know, it's not that I think necessarily the apples the Google's the Facebook's, I mean name whoever Nikes like name whatever company does you want, right? I don't think that they're finding people that are disproportionately that much smarter than everybody else. I think what it is that they do that is different is this crazy thing where they hire smart people and then trust them to do their jobs. But I think that's where, for me, we're in this moment of almost a trust crisis, right, like almost a trust economy, that I think that the people who want or who are really good at what they do want to go work for companies they can trust, they want to go to a place where they feel like they're going to be supported, where they're going to be grown, where they're going to be paid attention to. And again, I just think, you know, that is that is the current state of what is going on. And it can be a bit of a controversial statement. But what I fear is that for too many companies, we need another generation of leadership to go away, right to die off to to retire, to quit to do whatever it is, for us to start to see the sorts of leaders that are going to understand why trust is important that are going to understand how to work with people that are going to understand the way that design and creativity has evolved. And let me also be clear here right like this is a problem that's on everybody. This is not just where as designers, we get to sit around and look at everybody else and say this is a them problem, right? This is not a them problem. This is Everybody problem, because yes, do they need to evolve? Absolutely Do we need to find different ways of working? Absolutely. But I think that in this moment of this sort of crisis of trust, is where as create creatives and designers, we can rise. Because I think, you know, it is something that we are much more aware of something, we're much more tuned into something if we are inclusive in the way that we work, bring other people into the process, then we can help to reshift this thinking not just the behavior, right, but actually reshift and shift the thinking of what's going on here. But I think that that's, that's the real challenge here. Because, you know, whenever you start, just look at it and study it trust really has four parts, right? And there are four parts that I think if you want to be a part of something you have to have. And if you are a leader, I want you to think about how are you sort of living up to these four points. If you're on a team, how are you as a team member living up to these four points, like no matter what the position is, as you show up Every single day as you show up in every relationship that you have, as you show up in, you know, the teammate in the boss in the in the whatever it is that you do, how are you showing up to be credible, reliable, empowering son sense of trust and intimacy? And also what is your self orientation? Right? So let's go into what the hell does all that mean? credibility is just what it says. Right that people are only going to trust people, if they actually think that what they say is real, that if you will say this is what I'm going to do. If you say that this is the action I'm going to take, if you say that this is what my thought is, and that is what stands up to be the case, then they'll see you to actually be credible. Too often, credibility is spoiled by personal agendas. It's spoiled by politics, it's spoiled by our ego, right? Like our ego jumps up and wants to take control because we want to do what is in the best interest of us. And it's finding that balance right between your ego and selflessness that becomes the real struggle for so many of us because of the Ego wins and it becomes all about us. You're that person nobody wants to work with, right, because you're just some egomaniac who's only looking out for themselves. But also that selflessness can become a trap. Because you see a lot of people, their careers will stall, they will start to struggle. Because since they don't know their identity, they don't want to be able to risk something, they just make it all about everybody else. And sort of, then they get sort of too diluted and lost and all of that, you know, to be able to do that, then, on top of credibility, I think is reliability. You know, in that I want to, I want to trust what it is you do, right, like, that's the thing actions speak louder, right? Like, that's really what relatability comes down to right. Will you walk your talk? Can I actually depend on whenever you say something, because that's the thing, right? Is it saying it's the easy part, following through on it and doing it reliably? That's a real challenge. Now, then, the other part of it is and it's a word that I think, you know, it's I don't know what it's one of those words in the human vocabulary that I think whenever it comes to work makes people uncomfortable. Is that is there is some sense of intimate In that, you know, will you actually share something and trust someone with something that is important? Can you trust the people on your team with something you are going through? Can you trust somebody to be able to help you with something and I think that often it is that lack of intimacy it is the lack of that is why people do not have emotional trust. Because at the end of the day, if I feel like I cannot trust you with something that is important, then I'm going to really kind of fall back into that practical trust. Because that's the thing is like you can be credible and reliable and still be stuck in the practical trust category. Things like intimacy are where we start to get into emotional trust because now it is not just simply doing your job, but it is starting to talk about things and shit that really matters. And the last one is self orientation. And I think that was a phrase. I've struggled for a while about how to figure out how to phrase this because it really is self orientation means it is a combination of self awareness and focus because It is if your focus is primarily on you, then your self orientation makes it hard to trust because again, you're too ego driven. Or if your self orientation is on you and others in sort of equal measure, and then people understand that, then I think that's a self orientation where again, people can be able to feel like they can really trust you. Because here's the thing is that in my experience, people will not trust people who are completely ego driven, or who completely focused on other people. Because I will not trust somebody who's completely ego driven, because at the end of the day, I do not think they're credible or reliable, because they're just gonna look out for themselves. They're gonna do whatever benefits them the most. But in the same place, I'm not going to trust people who are completely driven and focused on others, because it means that they candidly, they don't have a spine, they don't have a center, they don't have a way of thinking, which means I find it hard for them to be credible and reliable. Because if they're put in a difficult situation where they're going to be asked to do something, even if they don't agree with it, they will probably do it. Because they want to make it about making everybody else happy. So it's sitting in the middle of that was self orientation so that I know that somebody is going to stand up for themselves. I know that if they have a way of thinking they're going to hold the line on that. But at the same point, they're not going to do that, to the exclusion of others. It is that fair and balanced opinion and approach. those tend to be the people that we trust, is because it is someone who here again, understands who they are. I know, that's a theme that we keep coming back to, I'm gonna keep beating that and you know, until I don't know when until this show stops, because it is that important, right. So we've laid out the basics. But I also think that there is a far more important thing to realize here about people and look, I didn't want to do this episode on trust for no reason, right? Like there are real business benefits to making this an important focus. But I think that for too many of us approach creativity and innovation and business transformation, like whatever the buzzword is you want to use I think we're doing it the wrong way. And I think this is why it failed. Because I think for most companies, I see them trying to do work to do transformational processes, whatever it is, which you know, really. And they think that somehow if they get the work better, if their processes are better if their project philosophy is better, than everything else is going to get better, people are going to trust each other, their culture is going to improve, like they're going to become more innovative. And in my experience, that is completely wrong. Because here's the thing is that and you've heard me use the phrase in the past, if you listen to any amount of episodes, right, I will talk about how the work is the truth. The work is the truth. And because I say that for a really good reason, because the work you and your team produce is a direct representation of how much you trust each other. Right? Like how much do you trust yourself? How much do you trust your team? How much do you trust your company? And then how much do those other groups trust each other? Because the less trust there is, then this is where you start to Get into those like, you know, ship v. org sort of things where, you know, look, if I ask a company for their org chart, and it matches their website navigation, I know there's no trust. If I put the leaders of design engineering and tech on a stage together, then ask them a conversation. And they look like it's, you know, a 12 year old or 13 year olds first date, there's no trust. All right, it's not hard to be able to see whenever you start to go looking for it. But I think that's the thing is that so many of us don't want to go looking for it, because it's an uncomfortable conversation. It can feel too big it can feel but that's the thing, right? Is that, you know, there is no trust whenever leaders hand down the solutions, right? When there is no trust, whenever, you know, you just sort of endlessly spin about you know why you can't make a difference. There is no trust whenever, you know, you won't reach out to try to do something differently, but that's the thing, right? Is that you know it whenever I look at that work, that is the first thing that I think about I don't think that they need a better process. I don't think They need different tools. I don't think that they need anything else. What I think is that, wow, you guys don't know how to communicate and there is no trust. And that's sort of been a very interesting part of this journey for me, because, you know, I've been able to step back and look at my own process. And realize, I think, unfortunately, just how different the way I work seems to be, and why it seems to make so many people who have been my bosses who have been leadership and things like that so uncomfortable, right? Because for me, trust was always the most important thing in the work we did. So I always approached any transformation, any new team, anything like that from a human perspective, right. So for me, it was from how do we build an emotional trust, not what everyone else was doing, which was approaching it from a practical trust perspective. And so I think only recently and I think it only crystallized for me even in the creation of this show to start to realize where how there was a misalignment. Right, because I've always believed like, if the culture is right, if the people are invested, if they feel they can trust everyone around them, then the great work will follow. And I think that's been true my own process. I think it's been true the teams that I've worked on. And I mean, I look, I'm not batting 1000. But I would say it seems to be that I have a better record than most whenever it comes to this, right. But it's this approach of using human centered innovation. And I think that's not a term that I ever hear, right? Like, you tend to hear Process Center to hear like, but it's really looking at this and saying, if we take even something like design thinking design sprints, and back it out even more, that is a human centered innovation methodology, right, like put customers people at the center of it. I think it's how do you expand that out to say, how do we put people in humans and the way that they work and feel at the center of the way that we work? Right, because that's the thing is that great teams understand that the real currency that will transform the world And their company is trust. Right. And I think that they will often the I think that it tends to get expressed not as the word trust, but in other words, right, like honesty or respect or courage. But for me, they're all kind of intertwined because, you know, honesty is really just knowing that the people around you are always going to tell you the truth. And do it with compassionate candor, right? Like, because you can be honest and be an asshole, you can be honest with an agenda you can be, but there's something like, you know, that they're pushing you so that everything gets better and they're not doing it for their own goals or their own agendas. Right, but that's the thing about honesty in the right form, again, is sitting on trust, respect, respect, right like you know that your teams and that other teams respect your work, your ideas and your contributions. I've talked before about the problems that come with teams who battle over who is right, right, like who which one of us is right, like these were internal political battles become more important than the work our customers and everything else. Again, the root of that problem, whenever it's done poorly or the root of That, you know, power whenever it's done well is trust. And I think Lastly, whenever you start to look at the people who will stand up and who will try to do something different, and whenever you're able to make that become truly transformational. Now, that's when I think like courage becomes involved, right? Because it asked if people step up to make a difference, those people No, it is not just up to the company to legislate a process that is going to bring about change, but it's about how they show up, and how they do it every day and how they push each other. And what courageous steps are they gonna dig to take to make it happen. But again, they have to feel like there is some level of trust that that impact that voice will actually be heard. But I think as you start to then think about that, that approach, right, like realign your perspective, to start to look at human centered transformation. And to do that through emotional trust, it requires you're going to need to do some things differently and to be able to change up a few things. And some of those things I think are much harder to do than practical trust, right? Because People are more complicated, they aren't as one dimensional, the KPIs and the measurements, we can become much harder, the coaching needs to become much bigger. But I think that's, that's sort of where it is you need to start, right? It's just the simple recognition that people matter. People are not resources. Alright. So whenever you do that, you need to start to think about and realign from the very beginning start to think about and look at to take the time to look at how do you hire, look at that through the lens of that's where we're starting to build trust, because I think that's what you communicate, if you're gonna communicate practical trust and you're just a resource and things like that. You and your company will continue to struggle to find good people. Because what you are was putting off there what you're advertising without singing in those, those kind of clear words, is that you know, for us people don't really matter, because that's why I was looking at a job interview, right? Like this is this is a company this is a team This is an executive on their best behavior, right? You're because you're coming in you're trying to sell me you're trying to get me in here and convince me why I want to be a part of this. Well, this is you on your best behavior. And, you know, the communication is horrible. The, the process is fragmented, you make it clear that like, you know, you're sort of only interested in me, you can't even be bothered to write me back, or like return a phone call if the process isn't moving forward. I just think that people are so blind and unaware to what's actually going on there that not only am I now not interested in this job, but I'm now going to anybody who comes to me that says, hey, where should I go work? You damn sure your the name of your company is not on my list. Right? But I think start with thinking about that, you know, in people matters. You need to actually hire smart people and let them do their job. And this, I think, is such a simple statement. It is going to be the biggest war for us to be able to fight is how do you show up? And again, I've said this since the very first episode, right? How do people show up with a problem to be solved, not a solution to be vetted? Right, you need to be able to show up and do that. And a lot of it is investing in those people investing in things like a scalable coaching culture in the past. I've talked about beliefs I've talked about, you know, the needs to Be able to do this sort of coaching why this is so important that you invest in people you lean in you look at what it is you're doing, you keep the good behavior, and you shape out the bad, right? Like, but it is this thing of saying, look, you matter, you have a future here, I'm going to invest in you and help you get to what it is you're doing. Not, hey, how much can I suck out of you? How much? How many hours? Can I get out of you, before you finally burn up and just realize that this isn't gonna be a place for you? But I think that there are other ways of doing that. Right? Like, do you actually promote people from within? Is that what it is you're looking at? Is that your talent pipeline? Is those sort of things where it's like, Look, we are growing our next generation of leaders. Do you think about it really like a sports franchise? You know? Yeah, sure. Maybe you've got the star quarterback right now. But a couple years, maybe you can't afford them. Maybe they get hurt. Maybe they move on? Maybe they do something else. Are you starting to groom those next people to be able to keep that success, generation after generation of leadership generation after generation of talent, and to grow it into something as a leader that is about more than just you? All right, like so many leaders have that arrogance that it's like, oh, it's successful, because I'm Hear, that is a small minded and stupid way of leading an organization in my, in my opinion, right? Like your goal needs to be to build something that can outlive you, your goal needs to be to be able to do something and put something in place that is going to be that strong, right. And I think a lot of it is also to make sure that you just do the basics. You know, some of those basics, in many cases, for me come down to things like communication. We're talking about that more here in a minute. But, you know, are you really communicating with people? Because I think that's the thing of trust is having conversations to communicate them so that they feel like they really understand where it is that they stand. But also even looking at the forms of communication, like are you deliberate in saying, this is the way we use email? This is the way we use slack. This is the way I use text messaging. And then this is the expectation that comes with each one of those so that I know and can trust in you because hey, if I feel like if I'm texting you and I need an answer right now and you get back to me in 48 hours, when the there's now we're starting to have a trust breakdown, but it's a trust breakdown because maybe we didn't actually communicate or have the same expectations, right? But that's the thing is that trust can be helped or hurt in everyday in all these little ways. But a lot of it for me is then about coming back to look at how do you work? Right? And a lot of that, for me in human centered innovation is how do you create systems that will give people freedom and a framework? Because you need there to be a framework, right? It can't just be, you know, be totally empowered and go do whatever you want. And like, you know, there are no grades and participation, like that doesn't get it done, right. Because I think like, democracies sound super great. And everybody's equal, and everybody gets their own voice whenever it comes to doing designing creativity. In my experience, it sounds great. It doesn't work. All right, there needs to be some sort of a framework to be able to put things in place. And I think, you know, a lot of things need to change. Like I said before, you need to have a more nuanced, you know, model for leadership. And this is why I've done episodes on like the 80 1080, you know, or the 10 8010 rule works much better when it actually adds up to 100. But they're those sorts of things right? Whenever you come in Look at it and say, Look, you know, I need to be much more about trusting people. And that as a leader that's going to come about if I give them insights were problems to be solved instead of giving them answers, because I'm going to trust them, I don't respect them to to do those sort of things, right? That you need to have a methodology that can define how you create, you know, and whatever it is have an agile process to keep them moving, but then have the systems in the standards that keep it all looking aligned, right, like that's the framework, but the freedom is, then how do you bring it to life to be able to do that? And then more than anything, I think, then it is also looking at how you work where you are constantly encouraging, maybe even demanding, putting structures in place that will develop mutual respect and trust among all the teams. Right. And and I think that you can start with practical respect through things like you know, is there accountability, or they're kind of like a quotable, Northstar that everybody shares that you can, you can have that through like tools and metrics, maybe even do like a shared meal or something like that. Everybody eats together once a week so that people can see somebody is more than just Their role. But I think if you aren't sort of demanding it, if you aren't modeling it is, you know, if the leaders of those teams don't get together, if they don't, if they aren't sure that they aren't on the same page, if they aren't actually getting up and doing meetings together, and investing in each other, then your teams are going to pick up on that, right? Like you can say the words all you want about how much we respect each other, but at the end of the day, then if that person goes back and talk shit on the other team, if that person goes back, and undermines what it is we said in public to somebody, then I don't trust my leadership, I don't trust that we're aligned to those other people. And that what I'm going to do is either model that because I want the trust of that sort of person, or again, everything is just going to start to be able to break down but it's that ability, I think, to be transparent is that ability to be honest. And I think that that sort of is a probably a good enough segue, I think into this last section. Because it's just how what do you need to prioritize and what do you need to do to think about what You know, what should you make sure that other people are leaning into, that are going to build trust? And I think, you know, for me as again, as I sat down to think about this, I think it really, really probably falls into four buckets. Right? I think those buckets for me have always been honesty, transparency, I think the ability to be connected and to be consistent, because whenever I've thought back about the people who I did not enjoy working with the people who I did not enjoy working for the people who I just didn't trust. These were the things that I felt like they failed at and whenever I think whenever I have failed as a leader whenever I have failed as a teammate whenever I've failed, if somebody like that it's been in one of these areas is where I've come up wanting. Now the first one, like I said, is to be honest, I think I've spoken about this in in some of the shows in the past and I continue to believe that you know, honesty is so important because if I I show up. And I'm honest with somebody, whether they are my peer, whether somebody who reports me whether they're even my boss, even if it is something that is hard to say or hard to hear, in the end, in my experience, people will respect that honesty, they will trust, that honesty because they know that I'm going to tell them what it is, I really think. Now, the hard part. And I think being honest and doing it in a way that builds trust is that you have to make sure that you do not bring emotion, interpretation, politics, personal agendas, or other things like that into this conversation, because those are the things that actually will undermine trust because again, you're not necessarily being honest. Right? And I think to try to have a selfless perspective to try to have it just a conveyance of the facts. So just just to have that sort of clean conversation will help. And, you know, I think this really comes to life. Whenever you think about the people who you trust, the things that they will often do, is that they will often And admit when they don't know something. And they will often admit when they're wrong. Because the people who we don't trust are the ones who will just make shit up on the spot, right? People who don't trust are the ones who would just want to convince you that they were again, always right. And we're back to that war over who's right. But it is that ability to be honest, right? Like I said, devoid of emotion interpretation. But just to say, look, this is where I'm at. This is what I'm feeling this is what it is that I'm seeing this is what's going on. Can we have a conversation about it? Right? Do you go into this with questions instead of statements to go in with the intent of having a conversation, not making a point? Because I think whenever you're able to do that, that's whenever you will start to develop real trust with people because you can have a real honest and transparent conversation. And I think that again, segues to the next part of it is in transparency, because I think that like real trust comes from knowing what people are thinking, right? Because I think it means that you need to be transparent about those problems. We need to be able to nobody's asking anybody to be perfect. Nobody's and again, I think this is where politics, corporate culture, like a lot of those things become problematic, right? Like you you need to be thoughtful about these sorts of things that there are some people who do not deserve your honesty, some people who don't deserve your transparency, because they will use it against you, right. And I think that it is how you understand those sort of things and evaluate those people that we all go through. But it's how do you find a way to be able to get to this? Right. So I think, you know, whether, and I think these are behaviors that are too often categorized as leaders, but I would assign them to people that are on the team as well. And I think that that that is a bit of a difference in the in the human driven innovation process is that you tend to ask much more of the team, then than just the leader, right, like a lot of those sort of things around like in this case, I'm being transparent. The ability to explain your thought process to actually invite feedback and to them actually pay attention to it, right like these sorts To the things that that will really allow people to be transparent with their creative process with their personal process with what it is they're struggling through a number of these different things, right, like, that's that level of transparency. I think that those are those sort of things. We talked about honesty, courage, respect, as we've talked about, you know, making people matter doing those sort of things, right, credibility, reliability, intimacy, self orientation, a lot of that comes out of your ability to be honest and to be transparent. But I think the other part of this is, as we've talked about, with cognitive bias, as we talked about with these other things, is that the way that you see the world can influence your opinion, it can influence your brain, it can influence those sort of things, or even if you feel like you are right, if you're getting bad data, if you are looking at it through the wrong lens, if you are not, and I think that's why for me, it comes to this next one, right if you're not connected, because I think you have to be connected to other people, to your team, to the work right and in a really legitimate way to be in there and to be really being a part of it. Because If someone is not if you aren't, don't feel really connected to somebody, if you're feeling somebody's not invested in the work, then that's the kind of thing where it's like, you can just tell when people are faking the funk on this. Right? Like, you know, if people are invested in if they're paying attention you do you know, who are those people who, whenever you're talking, they actually listen to you, right? They're not on their phone. They're not like staring off into space, they're not thinking about what is they want to say? Right? I think that's why again, in the episode about, you know, the seven rules of brainstorming about why it was you had to build on the ideas of other people, not just talk about your own, because you need to be again, build that sense of connection. But part of it is like, Look, you need to take the time to actually build those connections with the people like never underestimate the power of lunch, right? Like take somebody out for a meal, get to know them. I think get in the trenches and be able to work with people like get in there and work go alongside talking about what your process is be transparent about that stuff. Because those are the people whenever I really trusted when I feel like they're really in there with me and they have something that they feel like they can lose too. I think you know, let if you're in leadership, do things like let it everybody's seen contribute to what is that big picture be transparent about what is going on, be honest about what it where that is to be able to. And again, people can take it, people can trust you. But I think that there is that sort of thing where you need to let people do that. But I think then you also need to make sure that people are being connected because of the silos that we work in. The structures that we are inside of, in spite of our best intent can really sort of SAP our will and break down our ability to be connected to things. That's why I'm a big believer in the teams that will do things like starting guilds. Such a weird word, but I think it's one of those things where like, of all the designers get together and talk about what is going on with design, and to share what it is that they're learning so you're sure that all the designers no matter what silo you're in, no matter where it is, you work are all aligned on the same thing. And then again, to the heads of those guilds get together so that everybody who is in design or in you know, ay ay ay or coffee or prototyping or strategy or research or that those people are then doing share outs. So that again, we are all connected to each other because I think that's the thing is that lack of connection can drive lack of trust, because we feel like we just don't know what's going on. So how can I trust somebody if I don't know where their heads at? Right? Because that's the thing, that lack of connection will drive lack of transparency. And again, those two are very, very interconnected, but it's why it's a real problem. But then I think for the last part of it isn't being consistent. And I think that's some part of it is that if you're a person who is prone to freaking out, if I don't know what it is, you're going to do, if all of a sudden, whenever you show up every day, I have no idea who's gonna show up. don't tend to trust those people. Right? And I think especially especially when you get into leadership, right, like for leaders, you have to be honest, you have to be transparent, you have to be connected, but you have to be consistent. And the reason is because look, whenever you whenever you assume that position, you no longer get the benefit of a bad day. Right? If you want people to trust you, you don't get the benefit of coming in and just sort of like having a breakdown or kind of saying like, Look, no, this shit matters or because you will break the trust with your entire team who suddenly doesn't understand, like what is going on with you. And again, they feel like the connection has been broken. The transparency has been brought like There's all this sort of stuff that suddenly breaks down. So that's the thing, you need to have a consistent style, a consistent approach a consistent tone, but to also be consistent about it, saying this stuff matters and investing in it. Because that's sort of, for me where this all wraps up. You can think that this is all great, you can think that this is all just stupid in too much work, right? The argument that I will make is that there is no escaping the need for trust. If you and your company ever want to do anything, but just talk about how you're going to make things different, how you're going to create, change how you're going to create value, right? If you're gonna do anything more than just talk about it, then doing better work is only going to come out with people trusting each other. Right? And you also cannot start to build trust by going into this process and thinking I'm going to go make things different by figuring out who's to blame, right? Because that's what I said is that the problem is on all of us. The problem here is really just part of what it is that we all do. And I think once you have trust, right, like it can be one of the most amazing but also one of the most fragile things because you constantly have to work on it and maintain it and grow it as you evolve as your team grows as your company changes as your leadership changes, right? Because like all these sort of things continue to change the formula to change the elements that go into what is trust really all about. But let's go back to that first point, right? There is no escaping the need for trust, right? Like you can dress it up as something else. You can blame it on other people. But until you are willing to sit down and have honest conversations until you're willing to sit down and really share something until you're willing to call out that elephant in the room and say, Look, we don't trust each other. And this is a real problem. That that is the heart of what it is we do that we can have all the process and all the tools and all the methodologies and all this other crap. But at the end of the day, we don't trust each other to do this. No team will function without trust. And again, it's so funny because when you look at this in another context, look at it in terms of sports or something like that, of course, how many times you see a quarterback throw up the ball trusting that his receiver is going to do it? How many times do you see like that word trust talked about in sports? And then how few times? Do we ever hear that when it comes to business, right? Like, how many times have you ever heard a CEO say, look, I just throw a problem up there and trusted the team was gonna solve it. How many times have you seen a leader say, hey, look, we had this problem, and I just put it out there and I trusted, the team was going to be able to do it. No, that's not the story we ever get told, right? It's how one person with a singular vision did this thing and told everybody how it was gonna be. That's not the way this stuff works, right? Like it's great for movies and shit for business. But that's why for me, this is the thing this is another one of these conversations we have got to start having this is one of these things we've got to start thinking about. Because so many of the other teams can function without trust, right? That's the thing. As you look at your peers whenever you look at why does product you know work better than that, why does engineering because again they are not as reliant on it because their product is not as variable and is not as fragile as what creativity is. That's why we have to be the ones to bring this conversation we have to be the ones that fight for it because for us to do the best work for us to break through and to take that spot that we all know that we should have it has to be about trust so as we wrap up the episode like I think is as I said in the beginning you can find all the show notes around this all the stuff they've been talking about you know you can find this other articles other podcast stuff like that just head over to the crazy one calm the crazy the number one calm, like make sure subscribe to the show. leave a review so that I'm blue in the face. I look I think if you got questions if you agree with this you don't if you don't agree with it if you want to get in to this more Look, I mean you can like the show on Facebook, just head over to Facebook and type in the crazy one like the show there. You know reach out social media, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, You know, not the best Try asking questions. So, but but pick one of those right? And let's keep this conversation going because I think this is the important part of it is only when we're able to share what works and what doesn't, that we're going to be able to all get better at this. As always, everybody down illegal wants me to remind you the views here are just my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. These are just my own thoughts. And finally, I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. You know, the time is truly the only real lecture any of us have was incredibly humbled, you want to spend any of it with me. But go out and think about this, right? Think about how's everybody else doing a trust, but also, how are you doing at it? How are you building trust with other people? What are you risking, right? How are you how honest Are you being transparent and connected and consistent? Are you being to do that? So good luck with that. I'm here to help and as always, stay crazy.