The Crazy One
The Crazy One helps you find new insights and breakthroughs in your career, creativity, and leadership. In every episode, Stephen Gates gives you honest and actionable insights taken from his experience leading global in-house and agency creative teams, building multiple Fortune 100 brands, and working as InVision’s Chief Design Evangelist coaching and working with companies ranging from small start-ups to some of the world's biggest and innovative companies. Recognized with 2020 Webby Awards Honoree for Best Technology podcast, Inside Design’s #1 favorite design podcast, How Design Live #1 design leadership podcast, Springboard’s #1 must-listen UX design podcast and more.
The Crazy One
Ep 81 Keynote: ‘Why innovation is rarely authorized’ panel from HOW Design 2019
In this dynamic episode of The Crazy One, Stephen Gates shares an inspiring panel discussion on innovation with two influential voices in the field—best-selling author Greg Larkin and former IDEO leader, now Managing Director of Expa, Sina Mossayeb. Together, they dive into the complex relationship between companies’ desire for innovation and their fear of the very change required to achieve it. Discover the hard truths about driving real innovation, the risks teams take to make it happen, and strategies to foster a culture that isn’t afraid to disrupt. Tune in for powerful insights that challenge the status quo and spark creative transformation.
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What's going on everybody, and welcome into the 81st episode of The Crazy One podcast. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Gates. And this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership, design, and everything else that helps to empower creative people. Now, be sure to subscribe to the show, so you get the latest episodes whenever those come out. And as always, you can listen to all the episodes, get the show notes and a whole bunch more. Just always head over to the crazy one calm. That's the crazy and the number one calm. Now, as we get into the 81st episode, we're gonna do something different, different in that you're actually going to, for the first time hear from some other voices on this podcast. Now what I wanted to do is I wanted to share a panel that I'd put together that I did this year at how design live, the panel was called why innovation is rarely authorized. And it's a conversation that I had been trying to put together for a while because it's what two of the People who I think are probably some of the most influential in my life to the smartest people that I know. And it's Greg Larkin, who is a best selling author, he wrote a book called this might get me fired that I think is really essential reading for any, any creative leader, you need to, you need to read this. And I don't just say that because he actually interviewed me for one of the chapters. That was how we met. But I think going on from there, I think Greg has a really, really great view and a really great track record at how to bring innovation into companies. And then the other person is going to be seen a messiah and Sina was somebody who I met whenever I was at City and he was at IDEO. Whenever you hear me talk about design thinking, whenever you hear me talk about cultural change, in massive, massive amount of that came from working with Siena. And he at this point, he's left IDEO and he's the managing director at a startup incubator called Expo in San Francisco. And he often constantly describes Siena as like my spirit animal. I think as you listen to this episode, that there's one section where he will describe if you want to bring innovation to a company, like Super Mario Brothers. And I think not only just because his ability to take something that complicated and put it in terms like that is brilliant. But also, just as you can hear the passion and the energy that he brings to it is just absolutely infectious. So that was why I wanted to get the three of us together to have this conversation about innovation. And this was one of those rare moments where for me, it was an exceptional conversation that was actually recorded so we can share it. And I know a lot of you have been interested A lot of you been asking about the the mainstage keynote, I did exist loudly. That will probably be the next episode because I think you know, that was one that was also extremely well received. It was it's incredible that we Have a look at all the talks that came out of how I have two of the top three talks that came out of there. But I want to share this one first. Because I feel like this one is more relevant. And like I said, For me, it was the place where I really like having these other voices in the conversation. So this week's episode, this is why innovation is rarely authorized from how design live 2019. So I think what we want to do today was I wanted to get together two of the smartest people that I know and want to talk about innovation. I know that's see they ripped on my ego, I'll build up yours. Because I think look, you know that the intent of this session was I've been to so many conversations about innovation. I've been to so many conversations with companies and different things like that areas like innovation is hard. And let's complain about why it's hard. That's not what this is meant to be. So I think you know a lot of if you've ever heard me talk about design thing you've ever heard me talk about, you know how to change culture, seen as the one who taught me a ton of that. I talked about it in the keynote if you ever heard me to kind of talk about how in a lot Companies, the innovation they need will not be authorized that came out of the the work that Greg has done. So I think that was what I wanted to do today was just to get us together and have a conversation. And I think the intention for this truly is for it to be a conversation. And I think like, Look, as we go through this, if there is something that you feel like you want to contribute to something you want to press more on, throw your hand up, ask a question, do something like that. I know it's a big room. But I think you know, we want to have that sort of conversation, make it interactive, make sure we're leaving room for a lot of questions, leave space for time like that, at the end, do those sort of things. So however awake, brave, you're feeling any of that sort of stuff? do it that way. So I think why don't we Why don't we kind of start with probably an introduction in your own words, then so seeing them and you tell everybody who you are?
Unknown Speaker :Oh, man. So this is the hard part. I have a talk coming on later on some seating, all that good stuff for then, but a little bit of good stuff. So my background, I'm actually a reformed academic. I studied social sciences got a PhD and like every proud parent They want to see their kids say, I don't want to do this right after they graduate. And I went through the world of design. Because so how many guys have heard of IDEO? I should not presume that, you know, idea. Okay. So it was a design firm. They used to design things. And then they design services. And they got to a point in their evolution. And I was interviewing to be part of that great organization that did cool shit. And I was interviewing to be a design researcher, because that's the only thing I can make myself seem invincible, to do at that organization. And they said, Well, you can, we'll accept you and you can be a design researcher. That's cool. But would you be open to being hired as a systems designer? And I was like, This is so cool. They're about to hire me. And I was trying to keep my cool, but I had no idea what a systems designer was. And I was like, Look, I'm gonna be honest with you. I have no idea what a system designer is. And they said, That's good news, because we don't either. We just created this role. And we're hoping you can help us figure it out. together. And what it came from, and I think this is all related to abroad to talk about is that they realized that when they were giving like these amazing aha moments of great products or great services to these organizations, from fortune 500 companies to like smaller batches or governments that the organization wasn't set up to continue that legacy of innovation, or they would botch it up, we would give them some great designs and beautiful design deck with some schematics and things like this. But by the time I went out the door, it looked like a pretty shoddy product or a pretty horrible service. And they have the right people to do it. So they knew that when you design something, when you design a service or something like that, you have to think of the entire system. And so I think that's the world I got into and I became obsessed with how do you bring social movement theories to creating change within organizations, particularly when it came to innovation capabilities? That's it.
Stephen Gates :That's why you always bring people who are smarter than you to the party. Greg, how about you?
Unknown Speaker :Yeah. This journey began, I was the head of product at an investment research startup called invests we got acquired, I went into the acquisition, I stayed on post exit. And I realized that there is an enormous difference between being a startup entrepreneur, and being a corporate intrapreneur. I think innovation in every context is both birth and death. The birth part is what we all talk about and get excited about and that you're creating something that the world needs and doesn't yet have. And that's thrilling. And when you can make that come to life. I think everyone should devote their life to that. But it's death because someone always thinks they're doing it already. And they view you as an existential threat, and they'll do everything in their power to cut you down. And part of the difference I found between a startup and an enterprise entrepreneur in a startup everyone who thinks you're trying to kill them that's outside of the four walls of your company, and there's this degree of piss and vinegar and solidarity that you're in awe of the mountain you're moving and you're inspired by the people you're moving it with on the outside in a big company, the person who thinks you're trying to kill them is right down the hall. And they've gone golfing with your CEO every Saturday since the Reagan administration. And
Stephen Gates :that's just like, isn't my talk, this is going to be therapy. So yeah.
Unknown Speaker :And, you know, I went I went, I was the head of innovation at Bloomberg, I realized after a while of launching products, and some of them went on to make huge amounts of money. And some of them were wildly successful in the enterprise. But the thing that differentiated the ones that went on to catalyze enormous like 33 x returns on investment and those that didn't, is someone said, You know what, I'm a punk. I'm here. Fucking fire me. Seriously. If you think you want me on the outside of your company competing against you get rid of me if that's something you want. And you know, it was always that was the starting place. Never like we have a design thinking lab. We're investing in the blockchain, we just created an incubator. That's all bullshit. It always started with someone that was like, kill me first. Like, I'm not waiting. modernity can't wait for me, it might be able to wait for you it might pass you by. And so I guess I'm on a mission to make more people take that kind of a stand. That's why I'm here.
Stephen Gates :Because I think that's why I think we want to have that discussion. Right is because I think there's sort of that pink elephant that sits right in front of us that I think, for most companies that I think we all work with innovation happens almost in spite of the company, not because of the company. Yeah. And you know, so again, I think we probably go back to you so i think so You wrote a book called this might get me fired. We were gonna we're gonna actually so he's got 120 copies of with him, so anybody who wants one, gonna give that away after this.
Unknown Speaker :So in all three of us are signing up. So it's a rare opportunity to get three signatures on
Stephen Gates :three signatures. nobody hears Oh, yeah, no. That's why we come to this, like, you know, we're cool just in a really, really small section. It's called a vanity metrics. Yeah. But I think that's that sort of thing. And I think that'd be the question for either one of you. Like, I guess that's just the start, like, what, what does innovation look like? Or where does it start? Or because I think everybody's here because there's that like, we want it but either What do what do I as an individual do about it? What are we as a company do about it? How do I bring it about? How do we not just sit around and like, yeah, talk about it like a word that everything you're saying is what the hell it means. So first of
Unknown Speaker :all, it's never called innovation. Anytime there's someone in an organization who has innovation in their job title, it usually is a excuse for not innovating. It's up there with thought leader.
Stephen Gates :Yeah, it's like anytime anybody has it in their title on like Twitter. It's like thought leader. I'm like nobody who ever is would ever say that.
Unknown Speaker :But I think where it actually starts is when there's a Really high cost of not innovating. And if you're actually going to make entrepreneurship, which I think is a more accurate term for it take root in a big organization that's not entrepreneurial, you better be the one that's running into the burning building while everyone else is running away from it. That's really where it takes root. And I think design plays a pretty instrumental role in that, in that that's really the first draft of what a new normal might look like. It happens because of designers, if something takes a long time to build that first installation where people can actually interact with a better future happens because of designers. I don't know if designers embrace themselves or think of themselves in that way. But I think of them in that way. Yeah. And every time where there is that burning building, and that first sort of draft of what a better way might be, it does start with design.
Stephen Gates :Yeah, no. And I think that's that's a bit of our challenge. I think in many cases, we get insecure, we give up. We're not sure what to do with it, and I think so see, I think it's interesting. So you got from it. Yeah, World's Best Companies biggest companies came to you guys. So now you're at Expo, which is kind of much more like a startup incubator. Yeah. So it's sort of an interesting perspectives. I'm curious.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah. So I think that's a great point. I think,
Unknown Speaker :as you guys all know, and probably for many of you know, innovation sounds like a great thing. And it sounds like a verb actually, doesn't it? you innovate. But really, it's an outcome, right? Because if you if you knew all the way back to human human evolution and human psychological development, what really innovation can translate is two things. One is improving or introducing something new to make our lives better, period. That's it, right? That's the outcome of doing it. Now, what it really entails the action of intending is, if you go back to our subconscious roots, or fear your CEOs or managers, it's, hey, we've been doing something that's helped us survive for quite some time. And you're telling us to stop doing that to try something that has no proof point whatsoever, because there might be a chance of improving our lives right? Now I'm actually if you go back for the 10s of thousands of years that we've been on this planet, that meant you're going to put my life in risk. Fuck you, like, that's not that's what's gonna happen in my job, it's not really a risk, I might get demoted, I get fired or whatever not like, these are some ways that we take, but it's still hardwired to us. So when someone comes to us and says, Hey, I love the SRS, your number is going up or performing. I don't think it's gonna be that way. Let's go totally do something else. Of course, the natural reaction is going to be I don't want to do that. Because what they're really saying is I want this magical thing. So I have a way of communicating this to people. Which if you're a Video Game Nerd like I am, how many of you familiar with the game Super Mario Brothers? Or you know, someone who's played it right? So there's a little Italian dude, and he goes through the screen and he's really literal in the beginning like me, and then he he eats a mushroom weird and then he becomes big like, and there's this element in there and then there's a flower that you eat again, and now that I'm thinking about this is really like a like a lot of sub types of drugs right? So he takes this flower maybe like I was gonna experience and then he's gonna start throwing fireballs right now what happens is people who happens to me every Tuesday that's your the fireball Yeah, like this is evolution of Mario right here. And I think, for me what I've noticed the differences is that when we're in a company, we know what the outs that we know that fireballs and it's in our mind, it's gonna be so dope we're gonna be like fire, fireball throwing Mario, and then we know what it takes to eat this flower and so what we do is we go around in our organization so guys, guys, you got to eat this flower and they're like why would Why would I want to eat a flower dude you're like hi like, why would I do that right? Whereas entrepreneurs don't even think I don't have to convince anyone, right? They're like, I'm gonna throw fireballs and it's gonna be the coolest and then how they hire people is you want to throw fireballs? Hell yeah, I'm gonna throw fireballs. Join me we're gonna throw fireballs. It's gonna be awesome. And everyone gets really excited. So my biggest takeaway and this is like a really cheap defying the act of six years of work that I do But it was me focusing not on getting people to eat the flower, but focus on envisioning them throwing fireballs, and then getting them so excited about eating that fireball that they see it like it has to be so far removed for like, do you want to be little Mario that gets like squashed by a little turtle like you're gonna get killed by a turtle? Like that's what you want to be Mario? Yes, in the risk of losing that vision becomes so great that it feels painful to lose it. And it's like what do I need to do? I can eat a flower. Sure I can do that. So that's my in a nutshell way of describing the challenges of innovation six years six years of innovation work by others. Can I shrink that
Unknown Speaker :a little more? Yes. never wish an idea only pitching outcome.
Stephen Gates :Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker :No one gives a shit about an idea. No one risks anything when they say no to an idea. If you're in an organization and you're solving a mission critical problem and you're starting to gain results that are better, faster, smarter, higher return on investment than what the company has always done or any other company has always done pitch that don't walk into a room and pitch a PowerPoint deck that has a hypothetical like, Hey, are you feeling me? fireballs? Yeah, like that. Go in and be like, Look, this is either gonna happen. The question is not whether this can happen. The question is whether this will continue to happen here, right? I've already made it happen. And getting to a place where you're not trying to get people to get religion about innovation, but you're actually building the outcome that the company can't live without through innovation. And at some point, they're like, what did you how did you do that? What happened? And you repositions the power dynamic around innovation and design when you get to that moment?
Stephen Gates :Because I think that's always been my experience, but you almost have to do that Trojan horse, right? Because I think if you're like, we're gonna be different here are org charts. And, you know, now this is what we're way we're gonna be and here's our new values, and everybody's just like, you know, the other eyes roll in the back of their head. Because I think that that is sort of the challenge of it. And I think you know, it is also up against the fact that you For me, most companies are more afraid of like changing their process or doing something different than they actually are about being disrupted or being outsourced, I think because the muscle memory to that old way of doing things, and I think that that's why for me, like that was like, where my brain and like the crazy one was coming out, because I think it was what you said was like, you've got to be that person. And look, I think that that's the other part of it is to be the person that goes in and settles that in and to be like the fireball guy. You've got to believe it and know that like, there are days because I mean, that's the thing, like, you know, and I talked about that sometimes, like my crazy one tattoo is not like some fanboy Apple thing. It's like because some days I need a reminder of how I need to show up. And like I've gotten to that place of like marking my body and like some days, it's an affirmation some days, it's a reminder to like get off your ass and go be pissed off. But like, there's that sort of thing of like, you've got to be the one who was prepared to run up the hill and know that not everybody's gonna see it right away. Because I think that's the one thing that I've learned is in the beginning for everything we're talking about. They're going to tell you, you're crazy. They're going to tell you you're different. They're going to tell you they don't understand it until the moment where you find some success. And then Isn't it funny how those same people who made fun of you're gonna seek you out for the same reason?
Unknown Speaker :I also think you have to have a freak coming out party in these companies.
Stephen Gates :Oh, please. Oh, please, please explain.
Unknown Speaker :Well, because I,
Unknown Speaker :you know, I don't know I happen to have like, cut my entrepreneurial teeth on Wall Street. If anyone was wondering what happens at the Morningstar conference, I can probably tell you. And you know, that's like the least fertile, most lonely soil for someone who's wired like us. So yeah, so you were asked why
Stephen Gates :we all quickly walk past it. Like, it's like, you know, Voldemort's PTSD, PTSD, PTSD only.
Unknown Speaker :But what I have found is like once you sort of loosen your tie, and someone sees the neck tattoo, they're like, Oh, shit, I have a neck tattoo also. And once you kind of build that secret society, that coalition of everyone who's wired like you and you, you make it a safe space for entrepreneurs. weirdos and people that you know, didn't listen to Phil Collins in the 80s. But instead we're listening to Black Flag. Like, you know what, once you create a safe space for those people to sort of join together and support one another and push each other to not measure yourself on the company's curve, not don't grade yourself on innovation inside of this companies curve, but what is entrepreneurship and the actual world look like? And Let's greet one another and hold each other accountable to being our best entrepreneurial self. Period, not at Citigroup, not at Bloomberg, but in the actual world of entrepreneurship. Let's push each other to do that. And if that means we have to leave then let's do that one.
Stephen Gates :I think that's why I was like that term that you kind of coined that intrapreneur because I think that's always the thing for me is like whenever I work a lot of in house teams, I'm like, act more like an agency. Because I think that there's there's a level of we're going to come in, we're gonna have a philosophy we're going to find that opportunity. This is the vision where we want to do we want to bring that to life, where I think people get a little too kind of a climatized to like what is normal inside of their company and you start rage against that a little bit to kind of do that. But
Unknown Speaker :yeah, you know, it's funny I was I was looking at your glowing presence in your wise words it, I saw, I saw the words why innovation is really authorized that I saw you it was like, wow, okay. But it it kind of spoke to me because I think there's two things and I think there's two sides to this. And to take ownership of someone who wants to innovate, like it's easy to complain about the system, and the man is out to get you and they don't want to have changed and things like this. But the reality is, it is. So it's such hard work that most people don't have the will to continue doing it. And I think that's the same thing with entrepreneurs, you know, there's a 90% chance that you'll fail as a startup. And it's actually when you look at the data, it's not because of product market fit and all this stuff. Half of the team, all teams will split up because there's a fight between the two founders. And usually it's about something silly or like a tension around a choice. And I think this is the reality of innovation, that it's not glorious, and it's a hell of a track, right? You're convincing people who don't want to be to have their minds change, that they should change something they do. There's something that they feel good about. And so it's a very uncomfortable place to be. And I think I'll talk about that a little bit later. But there's a mindset that comes to this that you have to just embrace. You said, punk, right? He said, a punk rocker or like a rebel or a pirate and all these things, it's because we own that you will not be liked. For the outcome that you're trying to seek, you actually can just let go, you can let go of some of the things that you're hoping for, which is what evolution helps you do, right? People want to belong a part of a group, this is how we were, that's how we survive. So if you can let go of the need to belong, you can then even approach the relationships that you're building in a different way. Like you're not serving them because you want them to be a friend. You're rebelling, because you're in service of them. You're you're trying to break the rules, because you hope and wish that it is better for the organization. And so the outcome is going to be different. It's going to be the innovation. It's not going to be likeability. It's not going to be a promotion, perhaps, and I've been on To be fair, people hire I do pay lots of money for I do, because they're like, I get them in, they're gonna do something really shiny. I'm going to get that raise. And then I'm bouncing and getting a working for whatever big company co number and I'll be a CIO or CTO or see whatever, Chief design officer, that could happen to you. But if you really want to do the real innovation comes from long slogs of time. It does take time. And then there's a moment where you look back and say, I happen, but that is something I want to just take ownership on as an innovator. I don't think it's easy to say like, it's just the system's fault.
Unknown Speaker :I'm gonna push on that a little bit, if I can.
Unknown Speaker :It is a long slog, but it's almost like was that 80s cartoon where all the lions come together and form a giant person? Well, it's all true. Thank you. Yeah. It's kind of some Voltron shit, because if it works in a real way, it's not a long slog. It's multiple exponential cells, sort of finding one another and building exponential growth in an organization that's linear and making it a new normal for the organization. And all of those reaching a scale where it starts to become. It tips, the balance of how things get done and who has a voice. That that takes time. But day to day. It's pretty fast. It's pretty aggressive. And the other thing I would say is it also, it's not just the punks, you also have to convert people who are in the C suite who are executives to become godfathers to view their to use their power in order to catalyze an innovation inflection point within their organization, that otherwise you're kind of running to standstill. You never reach that critical mass. I mean, Steve and I first talked about Fritz van passion at Starwood. That's an incredible that you can take the exact same starting point that you had at Starwood and you put that in an organized Where you don't have that godfather? who's like, yeah, I've got you, I'm gonna look out for you and you get a completely different result.
Stephen Gates :I think a lot of what it is though, too, is I think a lot of innovation, we, we tend, we tend to love the results, right? Like, I think for most of us in industry, we tend to fetishize the beginning in the end, right? Like, yo, Steven was in the garage. And then it was in it's like, all the mail because I think, you know, there were, even internally like, with all the work against Star Wars, I mean, I had the most amazing, I mean, he was so amazing. He's broken me for every other company I've worked for. So I mean, like, he worked alongside Phil Knight at Nike. He was the CEO, of course, and then came into Starwood. And I mean, it was a CEO who did this amazing thing that was so incredibly rare, where he hired smart people and then said, I trust you to do your job. Imagine that. It was I mean, like, honestly, when I look back at it, like I was trusted with decisions that I should not have been, right, like, it was like, no, go to Apple and go, like, see what they're doing. And if it's a good idea, like just keep going, and he's like, I'll take the flack for it. It's like, okay, you know, it's only the future of the Hold company, it's cool. But I think you know that there was that an in him because even now whenever he gets interviewed and stuff like that he'll kind of they'll say, like, well for the innovation you did, and he'll say, like, I didn't do that I just created the space to let other people make it happen. Yeah. And I think also, you know, there were there were a lot of people who got really pissed off, I probably was almost fired twice. But I think that there is that ability, you know, to also to, to have that sort of safe space and to find, where can you find that kind of support system? Or somebody who will allow it to happen? Because no, I think, you know, I've got plenty of opportunities where we sort of would do something, and then you'd watch somebody at another company have the exact same opportunity. And where we were heroes, and we were on stage, and this was amazing. Their leadership couldn't get out of their own fucking way. Yeah. And would snatch victory from the jaws of defeat like they, they had it, they were there, they would have been on stage, if they just would have trusted their people and let it happen. And they came in and they were just kind of like, all of a sudden again, that's why I talked about like, they need to be right. They're like, No, no, I'm in charge. I need to make this decision. And it's like, you know, again, so They're those sorts of things. And I think, you know, that's that sort of part. And I think that's for me, like, I think one our ability to charge into that, but also to, because for me, that was the other thing like for those of you who are leaders are part of companies like with Fritz, I went into work every single day. Absolutely. I would have there was nothing I would have done not to let him down. Right. There was no amount of work that I was going to put in there was like the for the trust that he was willing to give me we were not going to fail. Because I knew what he was risking and doing it. And I think that that was that thing of just by him sort of giving us that space. The team just and he never said it right. But we knew what was kind of the stakes were to be able to do that. And I think that's where it's sort of like that concept of leadership. We kind of screw ourselves up.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah. Let me ask you something. Yeah. You mentioned before when you were in house at city that you told your team, think of yourselves as an agency and the
Unknown Speaker :the rash that broke out under my shirt was
Unknown Speaker :Is that there's a huge gap between a design entrepreneur and an agency designer.
Stephen Gates :No, there is. And I think I mean, for me it was more, because I think in what I saw with a lot of in house teams was, we would just simply accept what we were given. Mm hmm. Right. And I think you know, that willingness to run into the burning building that willingness to stand up and say, because I think in a lot of companies, what happens is that people just, they go with the status quo, because it's easier. It's easier for me to believe what everybody else believes, because then I don't stand out. I'm not an irritant. Because the moment whenever I see I stand for something, I planted a flag, I take a position. When it gets uncomfortable. People can think about me, they can judge me they can. I mean, there were I know so many people who have made very lucrative Careers Out of hitting deadlines and kissing ass and that's it, like no discernible talent. You all just thought of someone, right? Like who you work with every day. You're like, Oh, yeah, Dave, right. Like you all just like, everybody's got that person where you're at. And that's the unfortunate part because I think, but for me, it was that entrepreneurial. mindset, it was the ability that we were going to be the only sane space in that company. And that we needed to recognize that all we had were each other. Yeah. And that every single day, I always describe it as like the center of a hurricane. Because in the very center is the eye and the eye is the only calm part of the storm and that we were the eye of the hurricane because if we took one step in any direction, there's like flying buildings and cows and like, all he was just he was like mayhem, right? So I think that for me, it was that we had to be the change to stop saving around stop waiting for somebody else, stop thinking that somebody else is gonna bring it. Like if we want it, it is up to us. And so I think that was why and I know that can that agency can get miscast, but I do think that that's the difference, right? Because in an agency, there's an unspoken thing that if I do shitty work, we get fired. There's a sense of urgency that comes out of that. Then in house agency, you can sort of like you can let that mellow away and just kind of like Well, yeah, we'll get to it.
Unknown Speaker :The reason I said I just this is gonna piss a bunch of people in this room off so apologies and it won't Come to all of our goodwill
Stephen Gates :or any of our careers.
Unknown Speaker :Well, I just, I think, the professional muscle memory that you have to build as a designer in a startup that's going from concept to launch and you know that you have $200,000 in four months, or else you're done, the whole thing's over. And you you have to launch very fast the nature of what the pressure of a startup is means that you have to build and not wait around. And I find so often that in a lot of the best agencies, you have, like this perfectly crafted c plus, you know, it's, it's good enough that no one gets fired. Yeah, but bad enough or incomplete enough that you have to bring them a back end for multiple, multiple rounds. And I think being entrepreneurial in an agency is a really different thing than being a design entrepreneur.
Stephen Gates :But I think there's that sense of risk, right? Because I think it's even the same thing. Like whenever you work with startup, like anytime I work with startups who People who come from money that's my thing like yeah if this doesn't work the lights don't stay on the bills don't get paid I lose my I lose my like there is a sense of urgency and scrappy This is not optional. Right? And I think that's the hard part when you go into big companies wherever you go to those sort of things where you know, at the end of the day, we know it is optional. And I think but that's that part of it is how do you get for you and your team to light that fire? And I think that's why you like the fireball analogy or anything. Like this is why seen as my spirit animal like if you just watch him get that charged up. You're like, God, I want to show up like that person every day. Yeah. But that's what I said, I think but you you sort of, you know, it's somebody who can kind of help coach some of those things like I guess there is that how do you imbue a sense of urgency or even what you did an idea or with expert now like,
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, no, look, I think, again, first of all, I think agencies who are really committed to the work and especially designer so forget about the agency part because that's the business part but a designer, I remember being part of teams and the client would want something and you kind of compromise and compromise until it's good. Enough, and they're happy with it because you want to have continued work. Does this sound familiar to some of you guys? Or maybe you're on the other side of it, where you're like, hey, they were they're really agreeable. That's great. Let's keep working with them. that happen. And I think as a designer, you want to want to sacrifice your integrity, integrity, right? You don't want to sacrifice that creative force, which is is a provocation. It is a I don't know if we have the right questions, much less the answer. Yeah. You know, and being able to wrestle with that. And I think the one thing I realize is, as you move from the abstract, which is innovation as an idea to then paying someone money to do it, it I still had an itch I started each of like, wouldn't this doesn't feel real. Yeah, this doesn't feel I'm not close enough to it counting like there's not enough on the line. And I think you're getting to this. And so I'll talk about this a little later, but I had a chance to go to Peru. So his idea doesn't send or embed people within organizations is the first time they had ever done that. They sent me in another person to Peru to work with this organization to set up an outpost, but what it was is it was setting up an outpost to work with 30 companies. Part of this holding company and we would have to be accountable. So not only do I like shine, I give a deliverable at the end of the thing and say, This is what you guys should do. They're like, Great. Now show up on Monday and help us implement this. And to feel that what's at stake there, which is, which is like, the ideas of innovation, the idea of changing something great. What happens when someone doesn't buy your idea? What happens if it's actually a bad idea? Like you thought you were doing something great, but actually, people don't want it. Like, it sounded really cool. When you get into that conference, and you saw it, and you're like, oh, we're all gonna have open plan desks and cubicles. And then you realize, like, I can't even do work in this environment. What are you gonna do then? And I think the act of that's what I liked about it. And this is similar to the entrepreneur. It's the act of it's like a active state. There's never a final state, the minute you've entered the final state, you've been institutionalized. This is the same goes with social movements. By the way, the death of a social movement is twofold. Either it's successful, and it gets institutionalized. And there's laws that are passed, and those people actually become governors, policymakers, etc, into that system into the silver rights movement, etc. Or it gets crushed, it just gets crushed, dominated people get killed, etc, etc, the singular innovation, the minute you've innovated something new, you have to go on to the next thing, you have to continue to push and wrestle the implementation of that and wrestle it. Otherwise, you're in a very precarious area of being the expert, and then the expert at that given time, and then 10 years passes, you're still giving talks about that thing that you did 10 years ago, and I think that's the that's my admonition to anyone who wants to innovate. It's like, you have to be a practitioner. Otherwise, you're just you're not that
Unknown Speaker :but I also think what I love about what you just said is that we are part of a movement. You're not a designer, you're part of a design movement. And if you think of your role inside of your organization, as we are leading the innovation movement, that's such a different job description. That's such a totally changes what your success criteria are, how you should feel when you get home from work every day, the right reason to be a exhausted versus the wrong to be exhausted? I think that,
Unknown Speaker :yeah, it's good. Should we?
Stephen Gates :I was gonna say I think kind of looking at time and stuff like that we've got about 10 minutes or so left. So I think why don't why don't we open up with some questions and I think anybody who's got, I don't know if we have microphones or we're just gonna yell it out for people. I think we'll start there. And then we'll the gentleman over here. So whoever had their hand up, back over there? Well, we do in the in a situation where there's an in house designer and an agency. Okay.
Unknown Speaker :And they clash. Is that what you said? Okay, it sounds like that's a good, that's a good situation, but they clash. That's not a good situation, right? Yeah.
Stephen Gates :Rock Paper, scissors. I mean, I would, I mean, my thing has always been that I feel like there needs to be a hierarchy. And my thing was for the agencies that I worked with, on the one hand, I wanted to I wanted to get to a place where we no longer thought that outside thinking was the best. That you know, there was a bit more of a balance so that for me, it was always the fact that my team was the portal and the gateway to the As he's went through, but for me it was it was a partnership. So we would co present we would actually partner with each other, to be able to do things like that we never competed, we never wanted to clash because at the end of the day, everyone will lose, like the in house team is going to lose, the agency is going to lose. And if nobody sees that, and both sides don't see that it's a real problem, because now all of a sudden, we're just creating all this conflict, we're creating all these sort of issues. So for me, it's like, Look, there needs to be a clear like, what is the hierarchy? Who makes the decision? Because the end of the day, it was, you know, they were working for me and my team, but it was also on me to not act like that asshole, right, who is like, you are here because you know, I am giving you this, it was like, No, look, we are here as partners. And both sides need to show up to that which means both sides need to invest in the relationship. Both sides need to be open and honest about what is working and what is not. Because Yeah, if it just becomes competitive, everybody's gonna lose on that.
Unknown Speaker :My, my experience with that is you have to be loyal to the mission rather than to who's fulfilling it and what I mean by that. Is what you as an in house team understand is why this is important. What does success look like? What does failure look like? What's the cost of not innovating? And that ultimately has to be the thing that brings everyone together? And if it comes into the situation where no, that's my turf? No, that's my turf. I find that that very often is and what I think the in house team is responsible for is holding people accountable to what the CEO is going to say on your next earnings call. Are they going to be able to talk about what you're creating and what you're building? When an investor from Morningstar goes and knocks on their door and is like, what's going on this quarter? Tell me about that project. You should you have to hold the entire team accountable to that. And I feel like when that kind of hierarchy of needs isn't really defined, it becomes territorial and
Stephen Gates :and I think you need to save each other from institutions. Thinking is there a lot of agencies I was working with, I would tell them to stop acting like an agency, which was this was the brief and this is how far we were gonna go. And we were scoped to invest in this, that that's not what a partnership is, right? Like, you don't kind of say, like, okay, these are my boundaries. And this is all that I'm gonna do like that. That's a commoditized relationship. Right? And so I think, you know, we're, again, you want them to bring the sense of urgency you need to keep them from, and like I said, I think there needs to be a give and take where, you know, again, people are gonna have to invest in and you have to get beyond the thought trap to, like everybody is SPECT with this budget in this time to work on this project. And we're only gonna think this far. It's it's a failure trap that happens every time because then, you know, we get this very sort of like happenstance sort of work and thinking that happens.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, I think I have a framework for this, actually, that I asked myself, I've been on both sides now. So I know I'm annoyed by agencies. I was on that side. I actually didn't think of it as an agency for quite some time and people kept telling me, I'm an agency and agency. I have a framework. These are three questions that I ask from the agencies aside and from the end from the design team side. EMI provoking enough, like in other words, challenging the assumptions challenging? Is this the right answer? And not necessarily always in a bad way inspiring? am I bringing inspirational things that's getting this team to think differently? And the second one is, or am I supercharging? So in other words, all times it's a capabilities issue. We have two designers on our team, we don't have the bandwidth. So we're going to bring a bunch of people and then, you know, with designers, I, you know, they can't live by themselves, right, though, where they're like, like lonely beasts, like, they'll just kind of go in the corner, turn into rocks. So the more designers you have, the more there's an energy is that happening. And if those two things aren't happening, usually my experience has been from from me, for me, I do and working with the client, that there's laziness on the other side, so they're hoping that I will fill in a gap. And the problem with that is, is that the minute we go, that gap will continue and that mission that you were talking about was will start to fail, like I made it seem like it's succeeding, but then it's gonna fail on the other side of it. So on the other side is if they're not provoking me or if I'm not provoking them, I'm not doing my work as a designer, I'm not showing up and saying, Wow, I don't know if that's the right answer. Like, I know, you spent a week doing that. But I still feel uncomfortable with it. Can we get somewhere? And I think that's my it's a little, it's a cheat framework, but it's a quick framework that I ask every after every meeting with the client or an agency.
Stephen Gates :Question there. She had so the question was like, What are the moments that are first so put yourself out there and kind of had that that moment where you had things on the line? I think
Unknown Speaker :the answer is yes.
Stephen Gates :I think it's a two part answer right? I think the one answer that I would tell you is don't don't copy other people's careers right? I think like on the web like learn learn what look at what why they did it. Don't look at how they did it. Right. Because like for me, like that's why I don't tend to talk about my work very much. I feel like it's getting yesterday's winning lottery numbers. Like somebody who you aren't at a company you don't work for with leadership that you don't have on a project you're not a part of. Did something you're not working on. Like it's like an art critique, right? It's like great, like, it's pretty but I don't know what the fuck I can learn from it. No. And I think you know, I, I can at least answer for me, I'm going to get some answering for all of us. If that's not a daily question of like, what did I risk today? Then you're probably not doing it. Right, right. Because I think there's a certain point where like, you've got to put yourself out there, you got to be emotionally vulnerable. You've got to take a risk, you've got to, and look, some days are bigger than others. But every single day like you, you've got to get comfortable being uncomfortable. You've got that's why like I said that in my talk, as I continue to believe that like, because also because if you think like you are a leader of you're trying to change our company, if you are not willing to do that, you'd be damn sure you're not starting a movement. Because you've got to show up every day and do that. And that's, that's part of the problem with it. That's why a lot of people give up. You don't get the benefit of a bad day. Like, oh, today there's not gonna be a movement.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, opposition is validation. Yeah, opposition is validation. If you're not pissing people off, you're not breaking through anything. You haven't innovated a goddamn thing. And when I think of the breakthrough moments, it's always because people are like, you're putting me in an existential risk position or I've put myself in an existential risk position. That is scary. It requires ovarian and testicular fortitude
Unknown Speaker :variant.
Unknown Speaker :And every time I'm up at that, Mark, where it's like, do you have it in you?
Unknown Speaker :I don't regret any of those moments as scary as they were.
Stephen Gates :Yeah, I mean, for me, that's like the sense of like, blood for a shark, right? Like, the moment whenever people get uncomfortable, man, I'm like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat.
Unknown Speaker :Like
Stephen Gates :it. That is the moment I am going the right way. Right? Because everybody's like, Oh, this is great. I really love it. It didn't go far enough, right. Like at that moment, you're like, well, you're gonna have to do some stuff different. Well, you know, I'm not sure well, you know, maybe I'm gonna have to go out on a limb with you. It's like that. Or you just start hammering on that, because that's the thing is like, it's gonna mean that something's going to need to be different. That's why in most companies like you start with this really great idea, and then you have enough those conversations keeps getting smaller and safer and neuter down. And then pretty soon, you just want a slightly better looking version of your bu. And then and then that's why, what, that's why I said like most companies, that's why they're super powers rationalizing mediocrity, because we have this really great idea. But somehow we need to make ourselves feel okay about this sort of like incremental, like little thing that we just launched. But let's tell ourselves that it's great. Is it really if you ask the customer? No, but we don't want to have that conversation, because then we're going to be faced with the fact that again, we're not we're not really making that change. And that's that hard part. And again, like, you know, bring a portable soapbox with you everywhere you go. Right? Because you're ready to jump on it make people believe.
Unknown Speaker :Boy, you know, I think that's such a smart. What's your name? Kevin, I think that's such a smart question. I think it's the right question to ask. And these gentlemen have answered it very adequately and very, actually, I agree with everything. Adequate How do I tell embellish? I don't like to embellish. It was it was good. It was good. I have nothing to add show up every day to be adequate. No, no, I never got but I just want to comment on the nature of that question, which is the right question. Every designer, when I use the capital the designer to ask the answer that right, but I think I want to comment on the question because and building on both of their things is asking the question why you're asking that question is super important because you can be very good at being contrarian. I hate Silicon Valley, because every VC is a contrarian. I'm the same way no one else can say being contrarian is no longer being a contrarian anymore. So it's like it's kind of awkward, right? And so I was very comfortable telling clients at some point. how willing are you to be willing to be wrong, and it made him feel really uncomfortable, but I was okay. I became comfortable with that. uncomfort I was no longer going on a limb. Right. What was going on the limb was thinking of going back to Craig's point. It's like thinking, How am I showing up in service of this design or this mission or this thing? How am I going out on a limb and there should be a talk someone maybe here can do it on selfless design, where you actually cease to care about your position in the design the client agency and it just becomes about this product I got some Dieter Rams shit right there, right? It's like you just you lose yourself in the moment of the design and there are moments where I can find rare moments that I've done that where I after the call, I'm like, holy shit, did I just say that to you? I do and like don't like we don't need to do more work for a client in front of our quiet like, that was absolutely insane. But at the moment,
Unknown Speaker :it just reminded me of that scene in dodgeball where events bond wraps the blindfold
Unknown Speaker :is crazy. And I think those are the moments where you're like, why did I do that? You got your point? It's like, because it was the right thing to do for this design. You know, and I think there's, those are the moments
Stephen Gates :but I think it's also making peace with like, at least for me, like, you know what, if I'm gonna get fired, that's the moment I want to get fired for sure. Like, I want to get fired on my feet. I'm gonna get fired right like you want to fire For that, this isn't the fucking company I'm gonna be a part of. And that's why I said, and it's like, you know, you need to be with me, you can bet against me. And it does take a little bit of that, like, you know, repeating the mirror until you believe it sometimes, but a lot of a lot of but I think that, you know, there is that sort of moment of like, you know, look, this is what I believe in, and I will stand up and say that, because I think, you know, for a lot of people, it's, it's easier just to be quiet, it's easier just to go with the flow, and then sort of like, bitch about it later. But I think, you know, I think for all of us that, you know, you say it in that moment, because you're just like, you know, look that that's because in some ways, I think, you know, for all of us, we've sort of become that person where it's like, you know, we'll see what others won't. Everybody knows it. Everybody sees it. Everybody see, it's like a stack of pink elephants, and they feed them fucking peanuts, right? Cuz you're like, that's a problem. They're like, yep, that's a problem. And we got to do anything about that. It's like, well, that's gonna be hard.
Unknown Speaker :I also,
Unknown Speaker :you know, I think since my book came out, and everyone's like, I'm gonna quit my fucking job. I'm gonna stick it to the men and fuck those guys. And I'm like, CIL. So that's not what I'm saying. And what I mean by that is not everyone is wired to write, go and take that risk. And there's still a very important role for those people to play in service of the people that are. And I think if you're hearing that and you're like, that doesn't sound like me, like that doesn't mean you should go home and cry and like a failure, but how you can act in service of the people that are wired that way, is a really important question. Not Not everyone, you know, went to CBG B's and slam dance to Black Flag, you know, but is a shitty It was
Stephen Gates :her autobiography.
Unknown Speaker :But when you went back to high school on Monday, and you were the dude with the blue hair, and they were like, that's cool. Not for me, but that's cool. That's awesome that there's a role for that and I think you don't ever not everyone has to be a punk in order to be impactful.
Stephen Gates :I don't know that. I could think of a better place to end up in there. So I think like I said, we're more than happy to hang out. If you'd like to get a copy of Greg's book, we're going to be signing out here. But outside of that, thanks so much.
Unknown Speaker :Thanks.
Stephen Gates :So that was the panel. I think, hopefully, you found that discussion as interesting, as insightful as sort of honest and raw as I did, because like I said, I think you know, these are two guys who I just deeply, deeply respect and I get a huge amount of insight and inspiration out of them. So I'd highly encourage you to go out and follow them. I'll put the links to to all of them in the shownotes. So go check that out. And then obviously, as we say, every time look if you like the show, if you're getting a lot out of it, do me a favor, go out and leave a review. It always makes a huge difference brings more people into the show. Subscribe so you're sure that you get the latest episodes whenever those come out just because of my schedule, not always doing them like clockwork in but I try to get them out there as often as I can. Yeah, you can Find out more about the podcast, you can find related articles, you can get information about Greg and Sina and everybody else, just head over to the crazy one calm. It's the words of that crazy and the number one calm and let you know, let's keep the conversation going. I think you can follow me on social media, you can like the show on Facebook, any of those sort of things. Because again, I'm here to help. And if there's anything that you're sorry, going through, reach out, and let's have a conversation to try and figure out if we can get you some answers. Finally, and as always, everybody down in legal wants me to remind you the views here are just my own. They don't represent any of my current or former employers. And so I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only real commodity that any of us have was incredibly humbled, you want to spend any of it listening to me. So hopefully, you've got a little bit of a better sense of why innovation is rarely authorized. Hopefully you want to run out and convince a bunch of people to throw fireballs with you, and until next time, stay crazy.
